Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 9/5/17 Mueller pulls IRS unit - sink attached to wall

by:KEDIBO     2019-07-09
Hardball with Chris Matthews, Transcript 9/5/17 Mueller pulls IRS unit  -  sink attached to wall
Display: HARDBALLDate: guest of September 5, 2017: Al Franken, Shan page, Adam Shiff, Bettsy Woodrough, Jonathan Swan, Mai Jiaxuan Rascoe, David Matthews CataneseCHRIS, host: trump is in trouble.
Let's play hard ball. Good evening.
I'm Chris Matthews from Washington.
Obama is back, he will bring some trouble.
He has remained silent since he was removed from office, but after President Trump said he would remove protection from thousands of young immigrants known as Dreamers, this has changed today.
The Minister of Justice, Jeff Sessions, announced the move today. Let`s watch. (
Start Video Editing)
Attorney General Jeff Sessions: I am here today to announce that the project called DACA, which is being implemented under the Obama administration, is being canceled.
The administration through DACA has deliberately attempted to achieve the goal of the legislature to explicitly deny authorization many times. Such an open-
Termination of avoidance of immigration law is an act of the executive's exercise of power in violation of the Constitution. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Matthews: President Trump said in a statement today that I am not in favor of punishing children because of the behavior of their parents, most of them are now adults, but we must also recognize that we are a country full of opportunities, because we are a country full of laws.
Well, the move fulfilled Donald Trump's campaign promise, but since taking office he has softened his remarks about Dreamers and promised to "show great hearts ".
He was asked this question today. Let`s watch. Let`s watch. (
Start Video Editing)QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)
How about DACA (INAUDIBLE)
US President Donald Trump: Well, I have a great heart and love for the people we talk about.
People think from a child's point of view, but they are really young people.
I love these people and hope Congress can help them now and handle them properly.
Really, we have no choice.
We have to do something.
I think it will be very good.
This will be the right solution in the long run. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Matthews: As I said, the reaction from former President Barack Obama is quite dramatic.
In a statement, he said, it was about basic etiquette.
It is wrong to quote "aim at these young people because they have not done anything wrong. It is self-
Because they want to start a new business, equip our labs with staff, serve our army, and contribute to the country we love.
This is cruel.
What if our child's science teacher or our friendly neighbor turned into a dreamer?
Where should we send her to a country she doesn't know or remember, in a language she doesn't even speak?
"Well, there are other protests across the country against the White House announcement, and the question now is, What will Congress do?
Will it pass a bill to save those who were brought here when they were young?
More on this, and many other things, Senator Al Franken of Minnesota joined me as well.
Anyway, thank you and congratulate your book, the giants of the Senate, with the proper title.
Let's take a look at this. SEN. AL FRANKEN (D)
Minnesota: Yes. Yes.
Matthews: Trump seems to be throwing hot potatoes.
He didn't want to say, I'm going to give these kids a chance, and Obama gave them the chance to stay here, even though they weren't brought here against their will,, their parents are against their will.
I want them to stay.
He's talking about having Congress do it.
What do you think?
Why did he do that?
Franken: First of all, the executive orders issued by President Obama in this regard are actually legal.
President Reagan did something similar. George H. W.
Bush made similar orders.
So this is fake.
I think he did this to attract his base, the only one to get rid of DACA.
The American people support it because they know these people came to the United States as children.
Their parents brought them here.
In many cases, probably in most cases, the United States is the only country they know.
I think everything former President Barack Obama said is true.
These . . . . . . Matthews: if it's all true, and it's a legal bill, a legal law under an executive order, why wouldn't Congress pass it tomorrow morning?
Why not pass both houses, send it to the president and move on?
I hope we can do it.
I don't know if I will come tomorrow.
We have to get votes for this, . . . . . . MATTHEWS: Well, do you think it's hard for DACA to get 50 tickets?
I really think that we can do that, depending on what Bill we have passed.
But I know Senator Durbin has always been his . . . . . . The leader of MATTHEWS: Well, will you give a rider, some people-attach it to some of the bills and remove it?
Frank: Well . . . . . . Matthews: I have an old memory of what I used to do on the mountain.
I don't know why everyone thinks it is so difficult to do a decent thing.
Well, I'm not sure everyone thinks it's a decent thing.
We have a lot of Republicans who don't think so-or for some reason . . . . . . Matthews: Okay, go and die!
Matthews: if they vote no, you get them done.
The moderate in the suburbs is over.
Charlie Dent won't vote against it.
Republicans in all suburbs do not want to be called the bad guys of this baby. Would they?
I think you're right.
I think . . . . . . Matthews: Maybe Balita . . . . . . Franken: I think we will find the votes for that.
I hope we can do this as soon as possible so that these people do not have to live in this danger. MATTHEWS: OK.
I think you will be president one day.
That's my point.
You don't have to confirm or deny it because I think you have enough wisdom and brain to do it. FRANKEN: OK.
Matthews: What will you do to North Korea now?
Because I don't think it's Trump's fault.
That's why I don't want to be president because I have to decide . . . . . . Matthews: What do you do to this man?
Matthews: Kim Jong Un: look . . . . . .
Apparently, he said he blew up a hydrogen bomb.
It took the Soviet Union several years to do this.
This guy has it now.
Frank: North Korea has no good choice.
As you know, they have conventional weapons aimed at Seoul.
There are 20 million people living in Seoul.
We have 28,000 US troops there.
We have more than 100,000 Americans living in South Korea.
If we take some kind of military action, millions will be killed right away.
MATTHEWS: Well, if we had a surgery and even hit their nose and didn't kill anyone else, they would have fired, right?
I think they will. And Kim Jong-
I only think about himself.
This is the point.
We're here to deal with someone who we don't know about his entire state of mind.
The worst thing we can do is calculate the error.
I think that's why we have to-I think that's why President Trump's remarks are very dangerous.
Look, we're in America. N.
They are now trying to impose energy sanctions.
Matthews: no wonder he?
Who, President Trump?
Matthews: Trump, for this crisis, for this marginal policy.
I think he upgraded the FRINGE policy.
He should not be blamed for their nuclear program.
You know, you can't blame Donald Trump for everything.
But for me, the most terrible part of this so far in many ways is that we know from past crises that what you don't want is a wrong calculation, is it your belief that Secretary of Defense Jim Matisse will delay stopping the president from moving? I think . . . . . . Matthews :. . . . . . Impulse?
I think the defense minister has a good influence there, and so does the national security adviser.
I think he understands--
What happens if we attack?
Matthews: Don't you think it's a "dog shake" situation?
When the president created a situation . . . . . . Frank: No, I don't-no, no.
If you remember the movie, this is shake the dog, it doesn't involve the killing of millions of people.
Matthews: Yes, that's not true. Let`s ask (INAUDIBLE)
Let's talk about the real situation that we know, special prosecutor Bob Miller, Robert Miller.
If you look at all the reports-in the main newspaper, the metropolitan newspaper, The Times, The Post, the reports are excellent, and the Wall Street Journal-you'll see someone close to the bone.
He appears to be stuck in a criminal tax issue, in a real financial predicament of Trump's actions, and in a way that sees obstacles.
I mean, is it too late for Trump to fire this guy?
Has he gone so far, or can he forgive everyone?
Well, the way he fired him was the massacre on Saturday night.
I mean, he can't-he has to pass Rosenstein, you know, because Seth has evaded himself.
I don't think it will happen, but you-I-you can't . . . . . . Matthews: do your Republican colleagues support you?
Did you hear them say in the cloakroom, you know, if Trump did, if he fired this person, if he fired . . . . . . Frank: I heard the discussion.
I don't usually go to their cloakroom.
Frank: Sometimes when I'm looking for someone, I go in.
Matthews: yours?
Yes, they do.
In fact, that's what we do.
Matthews: this may be a problem.
This may be the problem.
Don't enter each other's cloakroom. Go ahead.
I think Bob Mueller got the trust of everyone . . . . . . Matthews: It looks real.
In Congress and Washington.
He was twice identified as director of the FBI, 100.
He will see where the facts go.
I think people should be patient.
I think they should be patient.
Matthews: Do you think he has a Trump tax?
I don't know.
I think he should.
I think he should get it.
I think there is clearly some financial relationship between the Russians and Trump.
That's what his son Donald Jr. said in 2008, when he said there was too much money for Russians.
This is a business in the United States.
This is how Russians traditionally sink fish to people.
They did it in Eastern Europe.
This is the Kremlin script.
This is in line with a pattern.
I think-yes, I think Mueller will focus on his finances . . . . . . Matthews: If Donald Trump approved a letter saying that the reason for his dismissal of Comey was to deal with the Russian issue, would you consider it an obstacle?
If that's why he fired him, that's the letter he approved-he didn't send it out, but apparently he approved the letter. FRANKEN: Yes.
I have heard that there is a letter outside that may prove the obstruction further.
He said it was because of Russia. MATTHEWS: Yes.
Frank: That's what he said in an interview with the Internet or NBC.
I don't know if that means holding back.
MATTHEWS: Well, the person who approved your dismissal wrote a letter saying it was about Russia, and for me, it was off . . . . . . As far as I am concerned, it is the same in the interview. ? MATTHEWS: OK.
Speaking of interviews and political stage skills, Hillary Clinton has had several opportunities to push the book in the past few weeks.
I know how you sell books.
Sometimes you push a book . . . . . . Frank: go ahead with your show.
Matthews: By the way, sometimes it helps.
Your Book: The Giants of the Senate.
Matthews: Let's talk about Hillary. CROSSTALK)
Matthews :. . . . . . There are a few things, but one of the things that caught the attention of a lot of people is-well, let's take a look.
Let's see what's going on here and what's going on with her opponent Donald Trump. (
Start audio clips)
Hillary Clinton (D-NY), FMR.
Presidential candidate: We're on a small stage, and wherever I go, he's following me tightly, staring at me and making faces.
Very uncomfortable.
Do you stay calm, keep smiling and continue like he did not repeatedly invade your space?
Or you turn around and look into his eyes and say loudly and clearly, back up, you crawl.
A little farther away from me
I know you like to intimidate women, but you can't intimidate me. So back up. (END AUDIO CLIP)
Matthews: So he pulled Godzilla's number and followed her like he did-I don't know (INAUDIBLE)
He obviously wants to make her uncomfortable.
She said that she felt uncomfortable, maybe not professionally, which means that I should not put up with someone doing this to me.
What do you think?
What should politicians, men or women do when some people come to you?
Okay, first of all, Al Gore is not a fool, but you will remember . . . . . . Matthews: he did the same thing.
He appeared during the 2000 debate, and he invaded George W. Bush`s space.
Matthews: that . . . . . . CROSSTALK)
But wait.
But Bush is talking. he's going . . . . . . Matthews: he checked.
That's how he left. Hi. You know?
Matthews: Can Hillary Clinton stand behind her and do this to Trump? How do you (INAUDIBLE)
She can.
I mean, obviously, in that book, she was saying, or should I?
Matthews: this is an open question.
FRANKEN: I think the answer is yes, you should do some version.
Matthews: Let's talk . . . . . . (CROSSTALK)
Matthews: Okay . . . . . . Frankon: not necessarily what (INAUDIBLE)
Matthews: You know what's going on in American politics under Trump, and if he runs again, that's going to happen again.
This is not necessarily a resume or seniority, nor is it necessarily prepared or taken seriously.
This is about your behavior in the United States.
He got a guy who called him "Little Marco" and made fun of him sweating too much and he had left the stage.
He called other people Hillary Clinton "cunning Hillary ".
"It's on the stage.
Right now.
How do you get along with people like Trump, not just bitcoin smarter?
Many times, you know. . . CROSSTALK)
Matthews :. . . . . . Be a smart person, but I think the answer is that you have to accept him!
I'm not sure if you have to beat Trump.
You know, normally, the president-elect is the opposite of the last president-elect.
If you think of Obama beating . . . . . . Matthews: W.
Frank :. . . . . . Take over Bush.
It is a person who acts intuitively, not necessarily the most expressive person.
You have a guy who has "no drama Obama" who is very eloquent and speaks very well.
Trump followed suit.
So maybe the next person against Trump shouldn't be there to accept your narrative, it's always a mistake, Chris. MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE)the last war. FRANKEN: Yes. (CROSSTALK)
Don't provide material for his narrative.
Matthews: Trump will come back again.
Anyway, you announced today that you will oppose the US presidential nomination. S.
United States District CourtS.
David Stras circuit . . . . . . Frank: Yes.
Matthews :. . . . . . People in your state.
Why are you against him?
Look, I believe there's an independent court.
Trump has only contempt for the federal judiciary.
He showed this, you know, questioning the judge's race, you know, other decisions . . . . . . Matthews: Mexico-
President of the United States (ph), yes.
We-they did not negotiate with us in the normal way.
This guy named Stras-I shouldn't call him "this guy", Judge Stras-good guys, good guys.
But he's the clerk of Clarence Thomas.
He said Thomas was his mentor.
He was chosen by the right.
Wing Heritage Foundation and right wing
As part of the short list of the Supreme Court, the wing federal party people Association.
We were not consulted on this matter.
This is the normal process.
This is different from the past.
This is the judge of how you get consensus.
The court should not go from one extreme to the other.
This has been around for decades, and the White House has consulted senators in this case, and they have not . . . . . . Matthews: can you stop him? (CROSSTALK)
They only need 50 tickets.
Can you stop him?
We have a tradition called "blue skating ".
Chuck Grassley, chairman of the committee . . . . . . Matthews: pause.
Frank :. . . . . . Wrote a column.
Ed spoke in the Des Moines Register about how important the blue bars are . . . . . . Matthews: Does that mean a state senator can do that? FRANKEN: Yes. MATTHEWS: OK.
It looks like you're going to do it. Are you?
Franken: I said I wouldn't give judge Stella my blue note . . . . . . Matthews: they . . . . . . Frankon: Judge Stella, Matthews: Senator Al frankon, author of the giants of the Senate, is still the best --seller list.
By the way, in today's news, Susan Page, director of the USA Today Washington bureau, also joined me.
Susan, let me ask the Dreamer a question.
I know we're all talking about it-everybody is talking about it here.
If you're outside of WashingtonINAUDIBLE)
Well, it looks very popular. (INAUDIBLE)human.
The children came here because of their parents. They speak (INAUDIBLE)
American accent if you want.
They feel like Americans.
They are Americans, as the former president said, but by law they are not actually Americans.
Why wouldn't this get a quick vote in both the Senate and the house and get the president's signature that the president said he would sign?
Susan Page, USA Today: Well, that's what you think, because they're really people who sympathize with others.
After the flood in Houston the other day, we saw a dreamer die in the process of rescuing people.
In a recent poll, more than 2 out of 3 Americans said they supported the idea of having Dreamers stay in the country in one way or another.
But it involves politics directly.
You know, Senator Franken, I think the surprising optimism is that there will be a vote to make a dreamer plan.
But that's my problem.
Republicans, who control the House and the Senate, are willing to come back to their Republican voters and say, what have we done.
We can't abolish "Obama Care", but we do compile the Dream Act into law . . . . . . Matthews: Yes.
This is a big legacy left by Obama.
I just wonder if they would like to do so.
Matthews: It takes only about 25 Republicans to join the Democratic Party directly-if you get a clean vote, will you still see the vote fail?
Even if there is a clean vote on a clean bill to continue and codify the law, DACA executive order, do you think it will fail if it goes up or down?
Page: Well, it might pass.
But when you see Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell setting out their top three priorities in the Senate today, I don't include DACA.
When you hear the White House talking about it, they say the president will not sign or say he will not sign the position --
He wants a comprehensive immigration reform, which also means funding for the wall.
Will Democrats agree to do so? MATTHEWS: No. No, I think.
But I think a large part of the population is now from Latin America, a lot of people, a lot of sympathy for the people who came here, especially the children who think they are not breaking the law-in fact, they're not part of this decision.
They want them to have a rest.
I'm serious. I'm not understatement.
Anyway, I just heard a lot of pressure and enthusiasm for it.
Susan, thank you so much to Susan Page of USA Today.
Page: Thank you.
Matthews: Next, President Trump's own Justice Department rebutted his claim that Mr. Obama had bugged the Trump Tower.
His own FBI and his Justice Department say nothing happened.
By the way, there is growing evidence that the investigation of the special adviser is accelerating, including a new report, it is said that Bob Miller has recruited a secret branch of the IRS to help investigate Russia.
They will discuss the tax issue.
They will go to his finances.
That is-we are approaching the bones of Donald Trump.
We're going to talk to congressman Adam Shiff, the highest Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee.
In addition, the Trump administration warned that North Korea was begging for war after North Korea claimed to have successfully tested the hydrogen bomb.
How should the president respond to this?
How do we-what can we do-walk back from the cliff?
After a brutal summer, Trump put on braces for the harder fall.
Despite Steve Bannon's rebound from the White House, he returned and warned Republicans to prepare for the bloody presidential election on September.
The right-wing base is ready to fight the Republican Party.
Finally, let me finish tonight's show with the Trump watch.
"This is a hard ball. here's the action. (
Business break)
Matthews: Putin today responded to growing diplomatic pressure between the United States and Russia.
The Russian president said he was not satisfied with this sentence. his word -
The United States last week ordered a rude way to close Russian diplomatic property.
At the same press conference, Putin was also asked how he would feel if President Trump was impeached.
Putin said it was absolutely wrong for Russia to comment on the United States. S. politics.
However, he went on to say that Trump is-quote-"not my bride, nor am I his groom. Hmm.
We will be back soon. (
Business break)
Matthews: Welcome back to hard ball.
Well, there are now signs that special adviser Robert Mueller is making some progress in the ongoing investigation in Russia, especially in the case of possible financial crimes and obstruction of justice.
A potential evidence reported on Friday is a draft of a dismissal letter written by White House aid worker Stephen Miller, which President Trump intends to use to justify the dismissal of former FBI Director James Comey.
According to The Wall Street Journal, one of the issues mentioned in the letter is-quote-"Sir
Trump wants
Comey said publicly that the president did not accept the investigation in person, "apparently, Comey told him privately.
Well, the letter was eventually abolished by White House lawyer Don McGahn.
As the New York Times reported, "McGahn
Trump's letter shows how much he realizes the president's reasons for firing Trump
Comey may not be available for review.
"At the same time, the Daily Beast reported that Robert Miller quoted-
"The agent's assistance was obtained from ir's criminal investigation unit," noting that "its 2,500 agents are dedicated to financial crimes, including tax evasion and money laundering.
"Adam Shif, a senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee and a California congressman, now joins me.
First of all, this letter, member shifu.
If you intend to block it, we are discussing it here, and a letter that the president apparently approved will be handed over to Comey saying that I am going to get rid of you because you will not let me know publicly about the Russian involvement.
This sounds like a deliberate obstruction. REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D)
California: Well, I think this is certainly evidence of a potential obstacle.
That's what we want to see in Congress.
We wrote to the White House a couple of weeks ago on a bipartisan basis, and you might remember, Chris, asking when the president claimed there was a tape.
Recording the conversation with Comey is not only that he has a tape, but that it is any memory of his conversation with Comey.
According to public reports, the letter did commemorate Comey's conversation.
It should be produced.
We wrote two letters to the White House.
I think it has been more than time for the Commission to call these documents.
Our response from the White House is that I think it is very misleading at best.
So, this is important evidence that we need to see and what Bob Miller needs to consider.
Matthews: Let's talk about obstacles.
You're a lawyer.
In the context of what we have seen, what is the hindrance and what is leading to the suspicion that the president may have hindered the Russian investigation?
Shiv: Well, when it comes to the president of the United States, I don't think the criterion is whether the obstacle meets the elements of some indictable crimes, but whether it goes up to the point of dismissal.
There, in addition to some kind of legal standard of crime or misdemeanor, you have a very practical problem, that is, in the Republicans
Under the control of Congress, the president's efforts, if they reach the level of obstruction, go up to the point where Republican lawmakers can go home and say they guarantee that he will step down, this is not only the cancellation of elections that others do not like.
This is a very practical bar that needs to be met here.
But from the point of view of Bob Miller and the purpose of his investigation, this is what I think he needs to investigate, he needs to come to his own conclusion, and we do the same in Congress.
Matthews: back to John F.
Kennedy, IRS director Mortimer capplin is very helpful in hunting down rackets, bad guys, criminals, just like they get Al Capone for tax evasion.
Now, based on the latest report we received over the weekend, special adviser Bob Miller's action, using tax information to question whether the president has committed a crime.
How much do you know about this?
Shiff: Well, I can't talk to something that Bob Miller might or might not investigate.
But I can say that I think his jurisdiction is broad enough to include any financial dispute between the Russians and the Trump Organization, and that's anything that comes out of it.
This is one of the most serious allegations that I think we also need to investigate, because I think this is the most powerful form of potential compromise, not the pornographic video that I think has limited power, because the tapes that "enter Hollywood" are clearly limited-their impact is limited.
But if Russians are engaged in business transactions, not to mention illegal transactions like money laundering, it could be firmly controlled by the president.
Chris, we also need to consider that we have seen public disclosure in the last few weeks, and contrary to what the president has said, he and his organization are seeking business in Russia.
So, if they're not honest about it, we obviously can't rely on their statements about whether the Russians have done business with them before, let alone whether the business is legal or not.
Matthews: You mentioned the file.
Later today, the "Washington Examiner" reported that the House Intelligence Committee, your consulate, had summoned the Bureau of Investigation, and, of course, the Department of Justice, requested documents relating to the file, FBI relations with archivist Christopher Steele
However, neither the FBI nor the Justice Department handed over the summoned documents by the September 1 deadline and were given exceptions.
Are your colleagues concerned that Donald Trump may actually be involved in the hotel scene described in the report, in the archives, very vividly?
Is this part of what you mentioned that he might feel awkward-should be suffering from his language on the "get into Hollywood" tape?
In this regard, do you think there is actually a credible truth about the archival report?
Well, I don't know, Chris.
But I will tell you.
I do have concerns about sending most of these subpoenas to the Justice Department and the FBI.
This is what we do against ethnic minorities.
We have an approach in the committee that deviates only over and over again on a partisan basis.
That is, we will voluntarily request information before we consider a subpoena.
In this regard, the requirements for these documents have never been made in the form of a letter, nor have they been made in writing to the department.
Instead, the department got the first summons.
This is not a good practice.
This is not needed in my opinion.
Given that we have asked the White House to comply more than once, many times, and still have not been approved by most people by the White House summons, this very different treatment has caused us great concern.
Someone tried to discredit Christopher Steele, not to investigate that many of the allegations he wrote were true.
What we should be most concerned about is whether these sources of information in the report are true, not the authors who denigrate the report.
Matthews: Why is the summons-you say it has been issued-that it is defamatory of the file?
HIFF: Well, I think it's part of the effort to discredit the archivist.
I think there is a point that if they can denigrate Christopher Steele, they can denigrate the entire Russian investigation or the entire Russian participation in our election.
I see.
Shiv: Frankly, it doesn't make much sense to me, because no one in our committee has an issue with Russia's participation and what Russia has done.
So I'm not sure if I understand the idea behind it.
But I think that's our goal.
But again, it doesn't make sense to call the department when we don't take the initiative to ask for their records.
It's also about when there's a clear double standard between the people we're willing to call in the department and the people we're not willing to call in the White House.
Who do you trust more, Christopher Steele or President Trump? (LAUGHTER)
HIFF: Well, I don't know. Steele.
I hope to have a chance to talk to him.
We hope he will come to our committee. Mr.
Kenaway also offered to sit down in London with him.
But I do think that on the Russian issue, we see that the president has made false statements many times, and it is indeed misleading the Commission, just as we have asked for any document that records his conversation with Comey.
We received a tweet in response, and we received a letter from the White House, which was also misleading, just quoting the tweet.
So it is clear that we cannot rely on the White House statement on the Russian investigation.
Matthews: Thank you very much, AmericaS.
Democratic member of the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Shiff
He's from California, too.
He's from California.
Either way, Betsy Woodruff of the Daily Beast is now joining me as well, and he reports that special counsel Robert Miller has worked with the IRS.
Let's talk about this.
I mentioned the fact that in the Kennedy administration, Robert Kennedy, they really openly used the IRS to catch the bad guys.
The beast of the day: Yes. Exactly. (CROSSTALK)
Matthews: Tell me how Mueller is doing it now to find out who he thinks the bad guys around Trump are.
WOODRUFF: Miller is working with investigators from the criminal investigation department of the IRS.
This is a very small, very tight-
Secret elite investigation team.
It has been around for decades.
These people are actually IRS investigators who helped capture Al Capone.
Their professional range is very narrow.
This is tax crime and money laundering.
The fact that Miller worked with them was a very strong sign that he believed someone in the presidential circle, someone in his tenure, and committed some kind of tax crime.
We also know that Miller is a huge fan of the IRS criminal investigators.
When he was in AmericaS.
Lawyer, he worked closely with them.
He admired their work very much.
So, in my understanding, the fact that he put them on the ship is that in D. C. attorneys.
Matthews: will they go after him because they think he did something wrong?
Or are they looking after-trying to find what he did wrong?
In other words, he goes after Capone because he is a killer, a bad guy, a killer, a terrible person, a criminal anyway.
So, let's add taxes to him because we know he feels guilty about other worse things.
In this case are they pursuing what they think he did wrong, or are they looking for some way of doing something they don't like about him?
This is a good question.
My understanding is that the people in the criminal investigation department of the IRS are very non-partisan and it would be uncomfortable to go fishing and explore.
Matthews: this is not a fishing expedition.
WOODRUFF: That's right.
Matthews: But what do they think he did wrong in the first place?
What makes them believe?
I am open to this answer.
What do they like they can't smell-they don't like the smell of Trump's action, which makes them think there's a crime there?
WOODRUFF: My understanding is that one of the biggest concerns is Paul Manafort, and in particular there are reports that he may have used foreign bank accounts financially.
If this is true, if he does not disclose that he has these accounts when submitting his tax return to the IRS, he can be prosecuted.
This is a responsibility. MATTHEWS: OK. That`s simple.
Well done.
Thank you, Betsy.
Great report.
Next: North Korea could attack the US mainland with nuclear weapons, a scene that once seemed unimaginable.
North Korea recently conducted a test. is North Korea charging for this capability?
So how will President Trump, or any current president, deal with this very difficult situation, which is, in fact, terrible?
This is a hard ball. where is the action. (
Business break)(
Start Video Editing)QUESTION: Mr.
President, will you attack North Korea?
US President Donald Trump: We will see. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Matthews: Welcome back to hard ball.
It was President Trump's speech Sunday after North Korea's largest nuclear explosion in history, calling it a hydrogen bomb.
Well, the president also accused China and South Korea on Twitter and wrote: "North Korea is a rogue country and has become a huge threat and it is an embarrassment for China, it is trying to help, but with little success.
The president went on to add: "As I told them, South Korea found that their talk about North Korea's appeasement policy would not work.
They only understand one thing. ”Well, at a U. N.
The UN Security Council met Monday. N.
Ambassador Nikki Haley thinks that's enough. (
Start Video Editing)NIKKI HALEY, U. S.
His abuse of missiles and his nuclear threat indicate that he is begging for war.
War was never what America wanted.
We don't want it now.
But the patience of our country is not infinite.
We have kicked the jar long enough.
There is no way. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Matthews: Richard Engel, NBC News's chief foreign correspondent, has joined us now.
He is in Seoul, South Korea.
You know what we want to know.
We want to know how much danger there is, and what can be done by this president or any current president or someone who might become president to mitigate it.
Richard engel, NBC's chief foreign correspondent: So there's a danger.
North Korea seems to have hydrogen bombs at this stage.
The Japanese say North Korea's explosion this weekend is likely to be a hydrogen bomb, as North Korea claims.
They have a long time.
Range missile capability.
So, when you combine these two things together, they do seem to have the nuclear weapons capabilities that threaten the United States. S.
If it is not the mainland of the United States, it is the territory of the United States.
But it's still a fairly rough system.
It is still a limited number of countries, still a country of the United StatesS.
I think it could be dealt with by missile defense or the first strike.
This is not a mutual affirmation of the old Soviet era.
This is what North Korea has been saying.
If you listen to North Korea's propaganda, they keep saying: The game is over.
We are a nuclear power.
We will never be moved.
We are invincible. But the U. S.
-According to the officials I'm talking to, I think there's another window where they can take action if they need to, at least a few years back in North Korea's nuclear program.
But that means a military strike.
It will cost a lot, and it will cost a lot for the city I am in now, because if the United States attacks to protect the security of the United States, the city will pay the price, may be attacked by artillery and rockets, and may face World War II --level damage.
So it's. Matthew: Yes.
Engel: this is a very stressful situation where there is a window that is closing and getting narrower over time.
Matthews: any leader, let alone Kim Jong Un?
The UN, standing on the side, hit his nuclear capabilities with surgery, instead of attacking the South with his regular forces?
Engel: it's possible.
I think this is the calculation, or these are the calculations that war planners are doing now in the National Security Council. That if the U. S.
Some kind of action was taken against the nuclear facility, attacking the test site Punggye-
Ri, on the hill, then followed a threat saying we attacked these sites and we wouldn't go further.
But if you launch these missiles in Seoul, these rockets point to the city, and the flight time is very short, U. S.
It will be followed by devastating attacks.
Will North Korea hesitate?
Knowing that the regime is at stake, will they attack the chin?
This is an unknown.
That's why this is so dangerous.
I was told about America. S.
I want to solve the problem through diplomatic channels, I want to pass China, I want Russia to join in, but Putin said today that he is not interested in the process.
His views on this issue are very different.
But if this kind of diplomacy doesn't work, then the United States may launch some kind of military strike. S.
Before the window was closed, North Korea had many ICBMs hidden in hard bunkers with nuclear weapons, which was indeed an irreversible situation.
So, we live in this window, it is dangerous, there is a danger of misjudgment.
America is in danger. S.
Thought it would sneak into the attack before the window was closed and the situation deteriorated.
So, there's a lot to do.
MATTHEWS: Well, it has to work closely together.
I'm not sure the president can do it.
Anyway, thank you, Richard Engel, for your cold, fact report.
Then the Bannon came back.
There are new reports that President Obama's former chief strategist met with a senior Conservative. S.
Members of Congress from North Carolina are said to beout war.
This is a free Caucus war with the Republican leadership in the House and Senate, backed by Steve Bannon.
He's there, sir. Hardball.
You're watching the ball. (
Business break)
Matthews: Welcome back to hard ball.
President Trump is about to enter a very dangerous autumn.
Steve Bannon, former chief strategist of the president, met with American conservatives. S.
Congressman Mark Meadows is the chairman of the House's Freedom Caucus.
According to the website "Axios", the two men planned for nearly two hours on the agenda for the next month, focusing on Breitbart-
The free party group fought the Republican leadership on multiple fronts.
A source told NBC News that Republicans should be prepared for "bloody September.
Currently, Jonathan Swan, national political correspondent for "Axios", White House correspondent for "Reuters", Asha Roscoe, and David katanis, have joined me, who is the senior political writer of "America "? S.
News and World Report.
In order, in this row-how ballistic will this become?
If you can, forget North Korea for five minutes.
If Steve Bannon were to take the bait, how crazy it would be, to connect with the Freedom Caucus and decide that he will dismantle anything Trump is trying to ease Harvey through the debt ceiling, and any smart gain in the leadership vote, he's going to blow it up.
National political journalist Jonathan Swan: spent two hours with Matt Boyle at the "Breitbart" Embassy, and what does Matt Boyle probably mean by Steve feral, Washington's most ferocious political journalist?
Swan: Wild means broken chain.
He is the real Matthews: what animal does this mean?
Swan: Chris, do you know what is the most ferocious attack dog?
Matthews: what kind of animal is this, wild?
Swan: probably a species we haven't seen in real life. CROSSTALK)
Do you think they're dangerous?
Swan: I think they will fight the leadership in every turn based on Monday's conversation. MATTHEWS: OK.
What are the benefits of jumping the ball here and blowing up everything so that the government doesn't pay the bill?
The government will not continue to operate.
No one in Harvey can get help because Hurricane Harvey, nothing happened.
Who benefits from it?
White House correspondent ayesha rascoe, Reuters: no one.
Matthews: I think there's something strange about it besides the Democrats?
Rasco: Well, no one benefits.
I mean, you always make these agreements with Steve Bannon in September.
It's like a war movie, but there's something real here.
The question is, what do you get from nothing?
Matthews: What is the answer?
I mean, I think you got points in the free core group.
You can say you messed up the base.
On top of that, there seems to be some impact on what they do.
David catanese, senior American political writerS.
News and World Report: you should stick to the principle.
Some people believe this.
They want to cut spending.
They want structural reforms, rights reforms, things that are important to fiscal conservatives, deficit hawks, and those who took power in the tea party in 2010 promised that, rather than continuing to raise the debt ceiling.
Some of them do believe this, but I do think there will be Bannon and Trump factors who will be more loyal to the president or Steve Matthews: you're laughing
Oh, I'm not laughing.
Matthews: Yes.
You're laughing.
There are some people who are enjoying absolute chaos.
They proved their strength in the health care debate, right?
Meadows is a major player, and he is the one Trump is trying to get the votes.
They hardly cross the house.
It was clearly not passed in the Senate.
So, I think he will be MATTHEWS: Well, let's get the numbers here.
Of all the polls, about 33% said they insisted on Trump in hell and in high tide. We get that.
I know the strategy, I think so, keep it 33% and then add 10% by beating anyone he runs in two or three years just to humiliate a bit-no, not Little Richard
CATANESE: Marco Jr.
Richard Jr. is a musician.
He thought that he would win.
But when 33% shrinks further, what are the benefits for this country?
I mean, free caucus, how many people do they represent if they blow up everything?
In other words, the government has become a dead man.
The dollar makes no sense to the United States.
There is no point in our debt. It`s a joke.
We have become a banana republic, not to fight the Banana Republic.
Who benefits from it?
Rasco: Well, I think when you talk about the health care debate.
This is a perfect example.
You have the freedom caucus, they push the health care bill to the more right and more conservative.
And then you got nothing.
The issue continues.
We're not talking about health care.
But this is not because the problem has been solved. MATTHEWS: Yes.
RASCOE: It's just not supported to do this.
Matthews: who is happy with the ending?
Chris, they can't-Matthews: You're right.
Swan: I think what we're going to see next month is a ruling majority of Republican leadership, moderate and democratic parties.
Now it will politically hurt Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell.
Trump will not be happy about it.
But that's what you're going to see.
Matthews: it won't happen. (CROSSTALK)
Matthews: in other words, there is no hast rule anymore.
Let the Democratic Party -(CROSSTALK)
Swan: it will be a major bill for the Democratic Party. MATTHEWS: OK. We`ll see.
By the way, you're talking about Democrats. Not Democratic.
Is it an adjective or a noun?
You are American.
You should tell me.
Matthews: OK, thank you.
The round table is in line with us.
The Democratic Party is next.
These three people will tell me something I don't know. Be right back. (
Business break)
MATTHEWS: Well, we continue to monitor protests across the country in response to the president's decision to end the protection of thousands of so-Called dreamer.
Earlier today, thousands of people took to the streets from the coast to the coast.
In New York City, dozens of people were arrested in protest in front of Trump Tower. There you go.
We will be back soon. (
Business break)
Matthews: We went back to the hard ball round table.
David, tell me something I don't know.
CATANESE: President Trump is going to North Dakota tomorrow to sell his tax plan.
With him, Air Force One will be Democratic Senator Heidi heitakamp, who will be in next year's elections.
She wants to work with the president.
He was in Missouri last week.
He publicly attacked Claire McCaskill.
Democrats will have to choose one side.
Do they want to be defeated by the president in public, or are they Riding Air Force One with him to reap the wrath of liberals?
Matthews: It sounds like a gangster movie.
Thank you so much for the wonderful performances of Jonathan Swan, Isa Lasco and David katanis, telling me something.
Let me finish with the Trump watch when we get back.
If he can learn, he should definitely learn from him tonight.
You're watching the ball. (
Business break)
Matthews: Trump observed Tuesday, September 5, 2017.
In all of Donald Trump's strange statements, there is nothing more provocative than his promise to make America great again.
This, I think, requires us to put some facts on the table.
In the past few decades, they have made America great.
One is the first principle of our national compact, that all of us are equal before the law and the state.
We have no disagreement between what Trump says is the winner and what he says is the loser.
We are equal to each other as we are equal in God's eyes.
Second, we are not a divided country in nature.
Our ideal is national unity.
We come from many to one, we come from many to one.
Third, most of us are descendants of immigrants, some of whom have only recently discovered.
We're not from rapists.
Fourth, the beliefs of our country are cherished by the world-freedom of the press, judicial independence, and the belief in the rule of law.
Is it not surprising that Donald Trump has promised to build our strength by deconstructing the original, so that we have been united since our founding, and that America is great again?
We are a great country. Trump.
We must also be a good country.
This is a fact that we need to be firm when we face threats from outside and inside.
This is a hard ball.
Thank you for being with us.
"Everything about Chris Hayes" is starting now.
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